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Author Topic: Fast & Furious Heating Up  (Read 48262 times)
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ELAIU
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« on: June 14, 2011, 08:05:11 PM »

A couple of videos from FOX :

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/06/fox-stunning-report-expected-on-gun.html


http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/06/rep-issa-atf-program-was-mistake.html

I am looking forward to another meeting between Issa and Erik Holder .... of course next time Holder will be under oath.  Maybe he will get to pay for his sins from Waco yet.
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Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium.
Better freedom with danger than peace with slavery.

I'm willing to die to keep my guns,
Are you willing to die trying to take them!
TerryCSA
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2011, 08:16:46 PM »

Being under oath means nothing to Holder. An oath is only as good as the persons belief in the constitution and morality.

Wanna take bets on who gets thrown under the bus and departs the administration? It won't be Holder. It will be someone at the ATF.

Holder is creating a distraction by going after CIA agents for war crimes as he announced yesterday.

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ELAIU
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2011, 12:22:02 PM »

Being under oath means nothing to Holder. An oath is only as good as the persons belief in the constitution and morality.

Wanna take bets on who gets thrown under the bus and departs the administration? It won't be Holder. It will be someone at the ATF.

Holder is creating a distraction by going after CIA agents for war crimes as he announced yesterday.



I don't think it will be quite that easy Terry, I am watching the hearings on C Span 3 right now and it is quite interesting.  Someone at Justice is going to have to be thrown under the bus.  It will depend on how far up the dominoes "roll" on each other.  These types of operations do not get planned in a vacuum by a rogue ATF official.  This thing was planned in Washington, not in Phoenix or Tucson.  The DOJ "stooge" (asst atty general Weich) they sent to Darrell Issa's committee is not cooperating at all and Issa is pissed that his questions are being ignored and dismissed.  Issa wants to know who in Washington "authorized" this op and he is not telling even if he knows.  Someone in DOJ is going to have to fall on the sword.  Do I believe that Holder will lose his job?  Not unless something happens that they have not foreseen or if someone "rats" him off, by refusing to fall on the sword.
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Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium.
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I'm willing to die to keep my guns,
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qrayjack
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 01:40:28 PM »

House Panel Slams 'Fast and Furious' Gun Operation Tied to Border Agent's Death
FoxNews.com

A U.S. law enforcement operation intended to crack down on major weapons traffickers on the Southwest border spiraled out of control as federal agents were told by superiors to "stand down" and ignore weapons bought in Arizona headed for Mexico, a House panel heard Wednesday.

Three federal firearms investigators told the House Oversight and Government Reform committee that they wanted to "intervene and interdict" loads of guns, but were repeatedly ordered to step aside.

"Allowing loads of weapons that we knew to be destined for criminals -- this was the plan," John Dodson, a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent who testified to the panel. "It was so mandated."

He added: "My supervisors directed me and my colleagues not to make any stop or arrest, but rather, to keep the straw purchaser under surveillance while allowing the guns to walk."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/15/house-panel-slams-fast-and-furious-gun-operation-tied-to-border-agents-death/

The key is can the coverup be exposed.

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ELAIU
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 04:01:26 PM »

I don't know if they can actually cover this up .... it has gotten too much publicity, can they sweep it under the rug .... they are going to try like hell.  If there is one thing I learned from the Waco hearings, it was that no matter what nothing is for sure.  The dilemma that they really have is .... if they (the feds) are immune from the rule of law and we are under the "diktat" of our "betters" then the rule of law is meaningless to all!!
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Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium.
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I'm willing to die to keep my guns,
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2011, 04:47:05 PM »

They can't cover it up, but they can try to minimize it or twist it around to call it "legal". They'll deny that the rifles used had anything to do with U.S. BPA's getting killed. No one high up is likely to lose their job, let alone go to prison like they should. Some lower-level staff might be fired or even indicted as a sacrifice.

For me, the real take-away from this is that this is just another major issue illustrating how our government operates outside the law with impunity to the detriment of others in order to benefit itself.
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He who lives by the sword...should go out and get a really nice sword.
TerryCSA
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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2011, 01:00:12 AM »

It was brought up today that an asst. AG knew about it. That will be who gets thrown under the bus. Wonder if he will go quietly?
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TerryCSA
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2011, 09:07:40 AM »

Wonder what they will threaten to get him to go quietly?
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qrayjack
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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2011, 12:53:21 PM »

And we're talking about 'the most ethical and transparent administration' ever. They even lie about lying.
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ELAIU
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2011, 07:03:03 AM »

Well .. Well, doesn't this just surprise the hell out of us. :Smiley :Smiley

http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0611/Holder_lawmakers_endangering_war_on_terror.html



June 16, 2011
Categories:

    Terrorism

Holder: lawmakers endangering war on terror

Efforts in Congress to force terrorism suspects into military commissions are undermining the war on terror, Attorney General Eric Holder charged in a speech to a liberal lawyers' group in Washington Thursday night.

"I am determined to defeat our enemies," Holder said in his address to the American Constitution Society. "But victory and security will not come easily. And they won’t come at all if we adhere to a rigid ideology, adopt a narrow methodology, or abandon our most effective terror-fighting weapon -- our Article Three [civilian] court system."

"Without civilian law enforcement and Article Three courts, our ability to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat terror plots; to secure actionable intelligence; to enlist international cooperation; and to punish those who have -- and who intend to -- harm Americans would be seriously damaged," Holder declared to considerable applause from the audience of about 700. "We must speak out. And we must set the record straight."

Since 2009, Republican lawmakers -- with the support or acquiescence of many Democrats--have repeatedly passed legislation limiting the Obama administration's ability to try accused terrorists in civilian courts. Obama has signed several broad bills containing such measures, even as he expressed disagreement with the terror-trial limits. However, last month, the White House issued its first veto threat ever against legislation seeking to rein in the administration's options for dealing with detainees.

"Politics has no place -- no place -- in the impartial and effective administration of justice. Decisions about how, where, and when to prosecute must be made by prosecutors, not politicians. This is true for every case, whether it involves or white collar criminals or brutal terrorists," Holder said.

Notwithstanding Obama's past decisions to sign bills that effectively blocked civilian trials for some terror suspects, Holder vowed that "so long as I am privileged to serve as Attorney General, I will defend the exclusive right of the Executive Branch to determine appropriate venues and mechanisms for all criminal trials."

The terror-trials controversy is bubbling up again as the administration presses a case in federal civilian court against two Iraqi nationals in Kentucky accused of aiding attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq.

"The place for foreign terrorists and terror trials is in the secure detention facility at Guantanamo Bay -- not in U.S. communities and civilian courtrooms," Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said in a statement Thursday night. "There is wide, bipartisan opposition to giving the rights of U.S. citizens to men who tried to kill our troops on the battlefield."

In a 14-minute speech that stuck largely to the script displayed on teleprompters, Holder also touted other Justice Department stances popular with the liberal group, such as support for retroactive reductions in sentences for crack convicts and aggressive enforcement of civil rights laws. However, Holder made no mention of what would have been a sure crowd-pleaser: that he persuaded President Barack Obama to drop courtroom defense of the Defense of Marriage Act.

Department officials appear to have concluded that mention of the DOMA move by administration figures in an arguably political venue could undermine arguments that the decision was based strictly on the legal merits. Nevertheless, the lawyer who introduced Holder hailed the DOMA decision -- earning a loud cheer from the crowd.

Holder met more skepticism when he asserted that the Justice Department has "pushed" for Obama judicial nominees facing resistance from Republicans in the Senate.

Minutes after Holder left the room, 7th Circuit Judge Richard Cudahy used an awards presentation to lament the "somewhat pathetic efforts of the administration" on one judicial nominee, Victoria Nourse, which he said "do not look any more promising than most of its efforts on appointments these days." (Cudahy prefaced his criticism by noting that he's hardly a disinterested observer -- Nourse is his daughter in law.)
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Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium.
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I'm willing to die to keep my guns,
Are you willing to die trying to take them!
qrayjack
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2011, 01:00:25 PM »

These people talk out of both sides of their mouths like this and never give it a thought. Now Holder, who hamstrung efforts to try terrorists, wants free rein to do it his way. The arrogance and hypocrisy is stunning.

The latest on Gunrunner:

Plan to Let Drug Cartels Buy Guns in U.S. Approved at ‘Highest Levels' of DOJ
By Fred Lucas

(CNSNews.com) - Instead of trying to stop the flow of weapons from the U.S. to Mexican drug cartels, the Obama administration’s “Operation Fast and Furious” deliberately allowed it to happen. Moreover, “This shift in strategy was known and authorized at the highest levels of the Justice Department,” says a report by congressional staffers.

“Through both the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Arizona and ‘Main Justice’ headquarters in Washington, D.C., the Department closely monitored and supervised the activities of the ATF,” the report says.

On Wednesday, Rep. Darrell Issa, chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, convened a hearing to determine who ultimately authorized the Operation Fast and Furious, who knew about it – “and why it took the murder of a 40-year old border patrol agent and a congressional inquiry before administration officials cancelled it.”

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/atf-gun-tracking-probe-approved-highest

And speaking of arrogance...

Quote
ATF agents who complained about the recklessness of allowing cartel associates to buy guns in Arizona were reprimanded, the congressional report said.

“If you don’t think this is fun you’re in the wrong line of work – period,” the Voth (David Voth, ATF supervisor) e-mail continued: “This is the pinnacle of U.S. law enforcement techniques. After this, the tool box is empty. Maybe the Maricopa County Jail is hiring detention officers and you can get paid $30,000 (instead of $100,000) to serve lunch to inmates all day.”
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ELAIU
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« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2011, 04:33:03 PM »

More on just how far it went .... it is amazing that the ATF/DOJ actually thought they could get away with a stunt like this.  I guess think big when you control the media and the Justice Dept, huh? 

http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/2011/06/operation-fast-and-furious-should-end-holder-tenure

By: Examiner Editorial 06/16/11 8:05 PM

Watergate cliches though they are, two questions beg to be asked about the exploding Fast and Furious scandal at the U.S. Department of Justice: What did Attorney General Eric Holder know and when did he know it concerning the underlying concept, operational protocols and legal status of the Operation Fast and Furious program in the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms bureau?

Those questions gained special relevance Wednesday when four ATF agents testified before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee and squarely contradicted a Feb. 4, 2011, claim by a department spokesman that DOJ did not approve of the program that sanctioned the illegal sale here in America by legitimate gun dealers of assault weapons to representatives of Mexican drug cartels. The idea behind the program was that the hundreds of firearms thus sold would then be traced from specific crimes, thus enabling prosecutions of the individuals involved.

The agents testified that Assistant U.S. Attorney Emory Hurley, a Phoenix-based appointee of President Obama, "orchestrated" Operation Fast and Furious. ATF Phoenix field office supervisor Peter Forcelli, for example, told the committee: "I have read documents that indicate that his boss, U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, also agreed with the direction of the case." That direction was established sometime after Obama was inaugurated in 2009 when Phoenix ATF agents, breaking with long-established agency practice, were ordered to monitor, but not stop, gun sales to suspected gun traffickers. The agents testified that Phoenix ATF supervisor David Voth "was jovial, if not, not giddy, but just delighted" when Fast and Furious guns were subsequently recovered at multiple Mexican drug busts. And emails released Thursday by Rep. Darrell Issa,R-Calif., revealed that acting director Kenneth Melson even arranged to watch live feeds from ATF cameras in gun stores being used by the program while sitting at his desk.

But delight turned to devastation on Dec. 14, 2010 when two Fast and Furious rifles were found at the scene of Border Agent Brian Terry's murder approximately 18 miles inside the U.S. border with Mexico in the Arizona desert. The program ended the next day. Special Agent Larry Alt told the committee that Terry's death was the entirely foreseeable result of Operation Fast and Furious: "You can't allow thousands of guns to go south of the border without an expectation that they are going to be recovered eventually in crimes and people are going to die." There had also been panic among ATF officials when news first broke that Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., had been shot because they feared the weapon used might be one of those sold via Operation Fast and Furious.

Documents released by the Issa panel make it clear that Operation Fast and Furious was well-known and enthusiastically supported at the highest leveIs of ATF. That means the program had to have been supported elsewhere within the Justice Department. Thus, it is inconceivable that Holder did not know about Operation Fast and Furious. But even if he didn't know, he clearly should have. Either way, Wednesday's hearing provided the latest evidence that it's past time for Holder to go.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/2011/06/operation-fast-and-furious-should-end-holder-tenure#ixzz1PZRer9PZ
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Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium.
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I'm willing to die to keep my guns,
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qrayjack
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« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2011, 04:48:41 PM »

Quote
I guess think big when you control the media and the Justice Dept, huh?

I think that's right. It's the arrogance that comes from the illusion of absolute power. There is example after example after example of the Obama regime and the Democrat Party ignoring the Constitution and doing whatever they damn well please. It's time for accountability and justice.
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qrayjack
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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2011, 05:57:02 AM »

This is all here in the comprehensive posts on Gunrunner, but it's a clear synopsis of what was done:

Quote
BATFE knowingly allowed as many as 2,500 firearms to be sold illegally to known or suspected straw purchasers. One of those purchasers accounted for over 700 illegal guns. 

BATFE ordered its agents working the program not to arrest illegal gun buyers or to interdict thousands of guns that were allowed to “walk” into criminal hands. 

Senior BATFE officials in Washington were regularly briefed on the operation and approved of the tactics employed. 

BATFE agents who opposed the operation and who raised objections were told to “get with the program” and threatened with job retaliation if they continued their opposition.

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=6927

And about that coverup:

Issa: DOJ Covering Up on Mexican Gun-Running Scandal
By Fred Lucas

(CNSNews.com) - House Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Darrell Issa (R.-Calif.) told CNSNews.com in an interview that he believes the Justice Department is covering up information relevant to a congressional investigation of an operation in which the department knowingly allowed intermediaries of Mexican drug cartels to purchase guns at licensed firearms dealers in the United States and then get away without being arrested or the guns being retrieved.

Last December, two of those guns ended up at the scene of the murder of a U.S. Border Patrol agent who was killed by alleged agents of the Mexican drug cartels.

Issa pointed to two things he says indicates a Justice Department cover up. First, he cites a letter that Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich, head of the Justice Department’s office of legislative affairs, sent to Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa), the ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee on Feb. 4, 2011. Issa characterizes that letter as a “lie.”

Secondly, Issa says the Justice Department made excessive and unjustifiable redactions in documents it provided to his committee.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/issa-doj-covering-mexican-gun-running-sc



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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2011, 08:48:10 AM »

The govt is trying to put a legitimate face on this pig.

The intent of this farce was to HAVE Mexicans killed by weapons from America, so.....

The prez and Holder could clamp down on our guns, by claiming it was so out of control (our control of American weapons) that it's even killing internationally. Our weapons are spilling over into another country.

Now the govt is attempting to convince us they were trying to track cartels or illegal weapons traffic. Bullshiite.

This little sharade has blown up in Holders pussified face. let's hope the right has a set of balls and goes after the cruds who allowed this disgusting arrangement.

While I'm on it, let's hope a pair materialize to legally deal with Obama as he defies the 90 day deadline concerning Libya.
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